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Parkflyers Club
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Associate and non affiliated membership fees for 1 April 2013 - 31 March 2014 $5
Membership fee for those wanting to affiliate $72 ($67 Affiliation Fee + $5 membership fee)

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Re: ParkFlyers ~ Wings
Redbull air ace
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A few points Jacko,

-busy park= at 8am 3 RC Flyers, no one else
-busy road= a road protected by trees to flying height
-in the middle of the city = a park 300m x 275m

It illustrates why personal responsibility rather than 'rules' is a much more practical solution to the use of a very scarce resource i.e. open space.

Maybe you should ask yourself why the current administration has got the way it is. It is very characteristic of monopolies. Affiliation choice would produce organizations that closely reflect the needs of their constituents.

In my personal negotiations with MFNZ some time ago it was very much a We vs Them over how PFing should be structured. It is often said that you are the sum of your experiences.

We are not the only group finding the Wings administration falling short of their needs, see
http://modelflyingnz.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=133&start=10 and the attached PDF documents.

Posted on: 2013/6/10 19:34
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Re: ParkFlyers ~ Wings
Redbull air ace
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you have my vote Jacko ;) . I believe any report on the future of parks that isn't made public must contain contentious issues and we are currently waiting until it is too late to find out what has been submitted on all flyers behalves. I am working on finding out what a member of the public can do to view such submissions and as a ratepayer I may be entitled to do so. i agree 2.5kgs is a bulky beast for park flying but i liked the joules energy idea also. Despite the MFNZ issues those people are skilful and not easily shaken from the tree so i hold less hope for that avenue. Lets see how it pans out , i agree i have a negative view so far based on the poor decisions and outcomes i have seen,but i have never met a flyer i didnt like so there is hope for all avenues . it was great Johnathan asked us for opinion on parkfly guidelines, but from responses i felt there was always a preferred set of guidelines that he was looking for reaction to rather than rules forming from a consensus of the discussion.

Posted on: 2013/6/10 19:48
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Re: ParkFlyers ~ Wings
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Really not an us and them thing more a what the regulators will allow you to do as we all know CAA and Councils don't give a Rats arse about this Hobby.

They tolerate it as far as they need to within the Law. The Law is all that bothers them. Having dealt and organised a few Fly-ins. Dealing with the Powers to be can take quite a while whilst all the I's and T's are dotted.

As a Member (loose term) from Tokoroa you pull the Regulators chain had enough they will hit you with it......

Posted on: 2013/6/10 21:00
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Re: ParkFlyers ~ Wings
Starting to do aerobatics
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Jacko, competition is always healthy -- monopolies invariably lead to organisations and/or individuals abusing their power and resting on their laurels (because without competition they have no need to actually do the jobs they're assigned).

This has already been proven very clearly with MFNZ.

I would be very cautious with regards to MFNZ -- especially since the current executive (including Jonathan -- who, it would appear, voted against my membership even after his offer on this very forum) have already shown their true colors.

As it's turning out, my situation (my offers of help being rebuked and then being vilified by the executive) is *not* unique. It's becoming apparent that a growing number of others have had similar (but perhaps not quite so extreme) experiences along these lines with the present executive.

It would seem very unlikely that simply replacing two of the current executive at the next AGM will result in a significant change of attitude and perspective -- certainly not the type of change needed to bring the organisation into the 21st century and address the needs of new generations of RF fliers.

Note also that MFNZ's moves with respect to Parkfliers seem to be more "reactive" than "proactive".

For years, MFNZ said that the parkflier situation was "too hard" and therefore it wasn't possible to integrate them into the MFNZ structure. Then I mooted RCFNZ and suddenly that all changed.

The healthiest thing that could happen to MFNZ is for some competition to appear and perhaps ParkFliers are a perfect source of that competition.

For a start, MFNZ's preoccupation with non-RC aspects of the hobby and competition is somewhat at odds with the preferences of the new membership. In the past 3 years I have not met *anyone* who has got into the hobby to fly control line or freeflight and the vast majority of fliers are "sport RC" types. Look at MFW and you'll see that this is *not* the focus of MFNZ -- they're disproportionately focusing more on competition and CL/FF/Vintage type flying.

The many subsidising the few?

I would wager that in a few short years (if not already), the number of parkfliers will exceed the number of traditional fliers who'd you'd expect to find in MFNZ ranks. Instead of ceding control to MFNZ at this point and effectively losing much of their ability to control their own destiny, maybe the parkflier community would be well advised to consider staying separate and simply becoming more organised so as to lobby for their own best interests.

I would expect that MFNZ will be organising any representations to the SuperCity in a way that provides the best results for its current membership of organised clubs - and the interests of parkfliers will be secondary to that. By claiming to represent the PF community in its submission but perhaps focusing on the needs of club fliers, MFNZ effectively disempowers the very people who stand to be most affected by the contents of that submission (ie: you guys).

Call me a cynic -- but I honestly wouldn't trust these guys as far as I could throw them -- after all, they felt free to break a legally binding contract with me so breaching a "gentlemens' agreement" with a bunch of parkfliers isn't likely to cause them any loss of sleep is it?

It is also my assertion that MFNZ is too passive in respect to dealings with CAA. It seems to be a case of "am I bending over far enough" in respect to taking what ever CAA dictates, rather than going in with some strong, researched and substantiated business cases for model fliers rights.

As I've said before... the airspace is a national resource which is for the use of *all* NZers. The price of one's toys is not the metric by which "rights" should be established.

Safety should be paramount -- but that doesn't mean we should just take every diktat at face value and not challenge its true value or purpose if it unfairly compromises *our* rights (as NZers) to use a natural resource such as the airspace.

We don't have to be confrontational -- but we should be presenting very well reasoned, articulate, fact-based cases to support our case or to argue against regulations that may seem unreasonable or unfair with no actual contribution to air safety.

I still believe that the relationship between MFNZ and CAA is an unhealthy one. For example, when I questioned Rex Kenny about the jets flying in less than 3Km of visibility and without observers, he was completely unconcerned and dismissed those blatant breaches of CA101 regulations. Why? And why, since they are delegating the job of controlling model fliers to MFNZ, do CAA tell me that MFNZ have no obligation to police their own rules and won't be censured for not performing such policing?

Something very, very strange there!

If MFNZ aren't required to police their rules and CAA refuse to police their own regulations -- what is the point of having all this bureaucratic red tape and power -- aside from abusing it to settle old scores?

No, I think a little competition would do *wonders* not only for the hobby but also for the performance of MFNZ, CAA, aviation safety, and the rights of everyone who uses the airspace.

Posted on: 2013/6/10 21:45
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Re: ParkFlyers ~ Wings
Redbull air ace
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I actually think Chris and Bruce have made valid points on both sides of the argument. E.g. I could guarantee a young flier entering the sport would laugh at control line models (especially if they have seen telemetry and FPV).

Having said that, it may well be easier/more practical to fix what's already there.

I watch with interest....


Posted on: 2013/6/11 15:54
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Re: ParkFlyers ~ Wings
Redbull air ace
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Hell, I laugh at control line models


Quote:
by RCFlyingKiwi on 2013/6/10 19:34:52 A few points Jacko, -busy park= at 8am 3 RC Flyers, no one else -busy road= a road protected by trees to flying height -in the middle of the city = a park 300m x 275m It illustrates why personal responsibility rather than 'rules' is a much more practical solution to the use of a very scarce resource i.e. open space.


My point wasnt to say that what you were doing was "wrong", Just that our ideas of what's "common sense" are is different, which illustrates that we really do need clear & logical rules on a national level.

Posted on: 2013/6/11 17:47
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Re: ParkFlyers ~ Wings
Redbull air ace
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Hey no offense taken Jacko, you have raised a valid point.

MFNZ are rules based, follow the rules and there will not be a problem and if there is we've insurance anyway so it doesn't matter.

In our 3 parks we have a minimum of rules but a healthy dose of common sense and personal responsibility.

Lets explore Cubs in the park. We fly early on week days when no one is around, all done by the time kids start walking to school across the park. At weekends when there is a transition from flying to ball sport, the DLG or 750g Sukhoi comes out.

Originally we agreed on a rule that flying gives way to organized sport. Fair enough. Soccer games start at 09:00 but people turn up at 08:15 to warm up and hang round, now that is not organized sport. By the rule we are sweet till 9am, in reality that is stupid. We are all out of there by 08:30.

We made the rule with due consideration and good intentions but quite frankly missed the target totally in the safe operation stakes.

In the shared use facilities environment that we ParkFlyers operate in, rules can not be framed to cover all eventualities. That is where common sense and personal responsibility come in.

Posted on: 2013/6/11 18:51
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Re: ParkFlyers ~ Wings
Webmaster
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2009/3/26 23:40
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Well lets remember it is not a us vs them discussion but more a how can we fix it discussion. There are some clearly passionate people in this group that want to see it done right. We all acknowledge that the current wings system is flawed. Even MFNZ is looking at changing it for a reason.

They key challenge is to get MFNZ it invite us early enough into the discussion. They are starting to do that they occasionally get it wrong but they are starting to get it right.

Again if you want change and you are eligible to vote. Paid MFNZ member before 30th June 2013 you don't have to be physically present at the AGM to vote. You can nominate someone to be a proxy or mail your votes in. I will be going to the AGM and I don't mind being proxy to anyones votes if they want me to represent there view.

I know they are reviewing the wings badge and I am going to try to get them to work as a group with some of our guys to get it right the first time.

Obviously Jacko and sykotic have a few queries about some of the hotliner classes and the needed experience to work with them around this, RCflyingkiwi you are also very keen to make sure this is done right so I am proposing that the 3 of you work with the MFNZ as part of the working group to revise the wings system.

If you are happy to do this then I will start kicking the necessary wheels to try get this into action.

Posted on: 2013/6/11 20:20
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Re: ParkFlyers ~ Wings
Starting to do aerobatics
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I totally agree... rules are a crutch and for every new rule, a new loophole is created.

Instead of hard and fast rules (which are easily circumvented) I much prefer the concept of people taking personal responsibility for their own safety and the safety of others. When this occurs, *everyone* is safe and there are no loopholes.

Plenty of people have scoffed at the old SWMAC rules of "dont be an idiot" and "have fun" but they remain the tightest, most practical ruleset around with ZERO loopholes.

If you're endangering the safety of others then you're being an idiot and that's a judgement that can be made by *anyone* present at the time.

For instance -- when there is nobody about at 7am on a Sunday morning, flying low and fast might be perfectly safe and acceptable. However, try the same thing at 10am when there are a dozen or more people about and suddenly it becomes something only an "idiot" would do.

So, by saying "don't be an idiot" you create a flexible rule that adapts to the situation. Creating a *rigid* set of rules that attempts to encompass every eventuality is doomed to failure. Yes, every time a new loophole appears a new rule can be created -- but then you end up with such a mass of rules that *nobody* can remember them all -- so their utility and potency is lost.

Ultimately, we rely on people to be sensible and have regard for themselves and those around them. This worked perfectly well for over eight years at the SWMAC -- until some grumpy old men decided that it didn't match their model of "rigid" rules that were *selectively* enforced.

Posted on: 2013/6/11 20:22
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Re: ParkFlyers ~ Wings
Redbull air ace
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Quote:
Look at MFW and you'll see that this is *not* the focus of MFNZ -- they're disproportionately focusing more on competition and CL/FF/Vintage type flying.


Really?

Lets look at the last issue of MFW

x2 pages President & Secretary report
x3 pages AGM information
x1 page Info on 66th Nationals champs & Rally
x3 pages aticle on HomeBrew CNC machine
x2 pages on forming a charitable trust
x2 pages article on vacuum forming
x4 pages on building RC profile warbirds
x3 pages Radio waves column
x2 page Ross Harvey Memorial rally report (Heli)
x1 page NI Heli series event report
x3 pages soarchamps report
x3 pages Ray Summerfield fli-in rally report (Sport RC)
x2 pages Wangaratta Jets rally report
x1 page Free flight champs
x1 page MFNZ at Classic fighters airshow
x2 page Waikato control line champs
x4 pages SIG reports

So from about 40 pages of content the overwhelming majority is RC related with only 3 -7 pages being related to competition of which 3 where soaring which you will find a number of people who frequent this forum are interested in as well.

Heather

Posted on: 2013/6/11 20:58
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